I don't want to believe this is possible. It does explain a lot. There were nuclear plains heading for Cairo.
The attack on the Liberty was actually part of a much larger plan and that the Liberty incident was just one domino in a series of them that had as the ultimate goal a real-live shooting war between the US and the USSR. Had the Liberty been sunk with no witnesses as planned, the world would be a much different place now as a result new information uncovered by former BBC investigative journalist Peter Hounam A defenseless, unarmed American ship sailing in international waters off the coast of Egypt be sunk to the bottom of the Mediterranean and that the Soviets and their Arab allies (in particular Egypt) would be blamed for the event. As with the sinking of the USS Maine nearly 70 years earlier, the cry would be “Remember the USS Liberty” and America’s “justifiable” response to such a horrendous act would be the launching of nuclear weapons against Egypt, the USSR’s ally. The end result would be a Middle East free of any Soviet presence |
12 comments:
I don't want to believe this is possible. It does explain a lot. There were nuclear plains heading for Cairo.
Morey
First of all, the ship wasn't defenceless. Several sailors fired machine guns at rescue boats, after the initial attack, which confirmed to the Israelis that they were dealing with hostiles, despite attempts by the Israeli sailors to contact the boat by a megaphone (after they realized they had knocked out the ship's radio.)
But, there are two other much bigger issues. If the Israelis (or a conspiracy of Israeli and US officials) had wanted the Liberty destroyed, they would have sent several aircraft with BOMBS, not a couple of jets armed for anti-personnel combat with napalm and machine guns. And, why on earth would Israel risk damaging it's relationship with the US, especially just after learning that France would no longer honor her military agreements with Israel?
Every year, more declassified documents are released that confirm that the attack was a case of mistaken identity (and a major charlie-foxtrot by both American and Israeli forces). The definitive analysis of these documents is Michael Oren: http://azure.org.il/magazine/magazine.asp?id=143
Here are a few other sources of information:
Memos show Liberty attack was an error
By Nathan Guttman
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=315949&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
USS Liberty attack tapes released
From David Ensor
CNN Washington Bureau
Thursday, July 10, 2003
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/09/uss.liberty.tapes/index.html
Liberty Incident (Paperback)
by J. Cristol
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1574885367/ref=ase_theamericanisraeA/002-9474997-4459201?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&tagActionCode=theamericanisraeA
Here's his website: http://www.thelibertyincident.com/
Morey said...
Here's what one survivor had to say about the book:
"From the viewpoint of one who was on board the Liberty at the time of the attack, your account leaves little doubt that the attack was the result of a series of confused decisions, made in a war setting. Error seems to compound error both on the part of the Israelis and the U.S. Perhaps your account will lay to rest the many conspiracy theories which have plagued us all these last 30 off years." Cmdr. Maurice Bennet (retired) was on board the USS Liberty when it was attacked.
here are the NSA document: http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/index.cfm
"Our intercepts showed the attack to be an accident on the part of the Israelis." Nowicki explains...
Yes, my first reaction was doubt, but I'll list a few things that worried me even before this. I'll find the references if you require same.
1. A destroyer escort was requested and denied without adequate explanation.
2. It was very lightly armed. It was an intelligence ship.
3. The attack lasted 30 minutes not three. It was coordinated with naval torpedo boats that did the real damage. Needed planning.
4. Three USA flags were on display. It is pretty unique and a million miles from the Egyptian flag. Whatever excuse the pilots might have had, there is no way the INF could all not see US flags.
5. Relief US plains were recalled TWICE!!! Why?
6. Cairo was minutes away from being nuked supposedly in retaliation. Was this attack called off because the Liberty survived against the odds and prevented WW3?
7. LBJ and McNamera were virtually directing the event. Very unusual for an American president.
8. An accidental 30 minute attack just never made any sense. With all the other lies that have been disclosed recently about Israel actions, it is easy to see a deliberate hand of Israel in the event, What is different now is the part played BEFORE the event by the LBJ administration! Previously, the coverup AFTER was clear. But now...
Have you a personal interest, Morey? Please approach this matter with an open mind and I'll argue with you until the cows come home, as we say here in Ireland.
morey said ...
I would you suggest you read Michael Oren's article, (and read over the transcript when you get to the attack.) The article is meticulous in its detail and research. You're correct, in parts, but in battle it's very easy to make mistakes. Friendly fire is a fact of war, sadly. Hundreds of Americans and others have been killed accidentally in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past few years. Were they actually MURDERED to silence them from speaking out against the war? Was it part of a plot to increase the death toll to keep military funding coming? Of course not. It was just the usual shit happening because human beings, especially tired, stressed out soldiers in the midst of combat make really dumb decisions that often cost lives.
Also, keep in mind that this ship was observed and ultimately attacked by a jet fighter, with limited visibility, traveling VERY FAST. Even slowing to observe a target I think a fighter like that has a stall speed of around 100 knots and was probably at an altitude of about 1000 ft. It doesn't surprise me at all that he couldn't make out the American flag blowing, or just as likely, wrapped around a flagpole. That's why ships have LARGE painted numerical markings. Frankly, it's much odder that he completely miscalculated the ships speed. But, his visibility must have been terrible.
Check out the cockpit view on this page: http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/ac/mirage.html
I have no personal interest in this other than a disdain for conspiracy theories that fly in the face of rational thought.
Read the articles and get back to me.
M.
smokescreen reply!
Even as USS Liberty's Heroic Captain Receives New Honor, Coverup of Israeli Attack on His Ship Continues ...By Paul Findley Former Congressman Paul Findley (R-IL) is the author of They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby
For providing heroic leadership under fire, despite severe personal wounds, Captain William L. McGonagle, U.S. Navy retired, is the well-deserved recipient of two of the highest honors our nation can bestow. But on both occasions the presentation received little public notice, and the U.S. Navy took care to omit important details of his heroism and the identity of the attacking military forces.
Why the silence about Israel? It is the continuation of a shameful coverup ordered by the Johnson administration just days after the assault. Crew members were ordered not to answer questions, and Congress has cooperated in the coverup. The award to McGonagle was hidden from public view. Even tombstones were affected. Six of the crewmen who died were buried at Arlington National Cemetery, with a marker that originally read, "Died in the Eastern Mediterranean." No mention of the ship, the circumstances, or Israel. The marker was later improved slightly to read, "Killed USS Liberty."
Still no mention of Israel.
America ashamed of dead heroes! Why?
All efforts to secure congressional hearings have been futile. I recall with sadness an interview I had with Charles Bennett, a war veteran himself and a highly respected member of Congress. I had hopes he would agree to have the Seapower Subcommittee he chaired hold hearings. Many questions remained unanswered, and, I argued, survivors of the Liberty deserved to have their stories heard.
The timing seemed perfect.
Morey says...
If there was a cover up, it was because the Americans themselves had screwed up so badly.
A handful of the survivors, and bucketload of anti-Zionists continue to claim that there have been no investigations. This is a lie. There have been 10 official U.S. investigations. Five of them were congressional. They all reached the same conclusion that the incident was a tragic mistake. Eight United States Presidents: Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton, and Bush (43) have supported and adopted these conclusions. In fact, the current president of the United States, George W. Bush, through White House staff, issued a letter in October 2002 indicating his position that no further investigation of this incident was needed. I can criticize the Americans for many things but they do not hesitate to air their own dirty laundry.
But, anyway, I think this is my last post here. I've looked over your one-sided collection of anti-Israel clippings and you obviously have it in for the Jewish state. I would still recommend you go back to original sources where possible. Avoid what are clearly press releases and propaganda statements, and find out what really happened. I would also suggest a few books by unbiased historians. The Controversy of Zionism by Geoffrey Wheatcroft(a Brit who is neither Jew nor Arab) would be a good start. Also, this website, which contains a wealth of information and attempts to cover as many perspectives as possible: http://www.mideastweb.org/
Look, it's a complicated story. Israel is certainly guilty of many things, such as systemic discrimination of its Arab (and Mizrachi) population, and many over-reactions to terrorist activity; but the Arabs are not blameless. They missed many opportunities for peace, and made the situation worse for themselves by using violence as a negotiating tool, and deliberately exploiting the Palestinians to prolong the conflict. Perhaps you're simply a young Marxist, enamoured by the faux solicitude of Chomsky
Think Suez. For decades the British denied their part in the conspiracy, until the French recently produced the document with the signature. Have you got me.
Previously, discussions were about the extent or the cover up by the Americans AFTER the attack. If they were involved BEFORE hand, then that changes everything. Of course nothing will be found. Even if 200 inquiries were held. It doesn't mean that because not enough evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, isn't available that it didn't happen. On the balance of probabilities, IMHO, it DID happen, intentionally. If there was prior US input before hand - I'll have a more open mind in the future as to that possibility.
Because they were/are such loyal servants to their country, may be the reason why these servicemen have not voiced this notion. The thought that there country set out to have them killed is difficult to credit. To be the meat in the trap to start WW3 is scary. But they must have thought it! How bitter would you be?
I'm probably older than you and well remember that the best Marxist in the world were JEWS and ALL early Israeli governments were socialists. Capitalist is much more profitable if also more corrupting, obviously.
I'm Irish. You are clearly not American. Have you any problem disclosing your roots, Junior.
Morey says...
Don't assume you're older than me. I remember the Six-Day War, albeit vaguely. And I'm Canadian.
Suez was interesting. It proved the one thing that you and I would agree on: all nations, whether we speak of Britain, France, Israel or the US, will ultimately do what is in their own best interests. There is no such thing as altruism when it comes to foreign affairs.
I think most of these theories are based on some subconscious belief that Jews are capable of heinous crimes to defend themselves at all costs. I'm not saying some of those crimes haven't occurred (there's no doubt civilians were massacred, for example, in 1948, but BOTH sides are equally guilty) but Liberty is different.
There's now probably more hard evidence, in the form of State Dept. documents and recorded conversations, for this one event than any other in Israeli military history. But, the response to every 'fact' that has been provided is an even more outlandish conspiracy theory, none of which can solve the most basic problem with the conspiracies: if Israel (or the US) had wanted the ship sunk, it would have been sunk. Had there been a PLOT as alleged, fighter-bombers would have been dispatched; Israel, by June 8, owned the skies having destroyed Egypt's air force on the ground. Incidentally, they used new (even the US did not have) targeting technology that allowed them to strike only real planes and not the dummy planes that Egypt had planted. It's inconceivable that they could have not destroyed Liberty if that was the intent BEFORE the actual attack. Or, had Israel (or others) wished people to THINK that the plane was attacked by Egyptian or Syrian forces, why start an attack and then stop after allowing yourself to be identified as Israeli? In fact, Israel possessed several captured MIG-21 fighters and could have easily made this look like an Egyptian attack.
Morey continues ...
Ironically, several of the survivors thought they were being attacked by MIGs (these sailors on an intelligence ship couldn't tell the difference between MIGs and Mirages, but they're surprised that an Israeli pilot couldn't identify a blowing flag from a fast moving plane) but finally spotted the tell-tale blue and white Star of David.
And you're definitely right about capitalism. For example, the desire to sell more books (Israel=bad is always a bestseller) or promote a speaking tour (i.e.. Chomsky) or pass oneself off as an academic despite never having produced any original academic papers (ie. Finkelstein) Hating is Israel is indeed very good for business.
What is more galling is that there are plenty of real tragedies going on all around us. The native people of this country, for example, are still waiting for an apology for 200 years of discrimination including the residential school system (which only ended a few decades ago) which literally snatched children out of native homes and forced them to have a Christian education. Massacres are happening AS WE SPEAK in Darfur; true occupation is going on in Tibet and many other places; yet, this single-minded obsession with Israel persists. Why? Either you hate Jews (maybe just uppity Jews with guns); you're sincerely afraid of Muslims; or you're caught up in a fantasy that this twisted world MUST be under the influence of a nefarious force, an evil cabal that has prevented good Christians from spreading love, and kept the poor from rising up, and who better to blame than the one civilization that has actually, outlived all the great powers that have come and gone through history. Well, whatever. I can't help you if that's your problem, but I'd still recommend you get out more. btw, the world was MUCH closer to nuclear war in 1973, when both the
Americans and the Soviets were actively involved in the October War. There were actually Soviet 'advisers' on the ground in Egypt and Syria, and the Americans were ...
Morey continues further ...
...determined to prevent the Middle East from falling into the hands of the communists. Both the US and Israel were preparing for the possible use of nuclear weapons until Israeli forces were able to hold back the Syrians in the Golan, and reserves finally reinforced the Israeli position in the Sinai.
Whew, that's a lot of typing first thing in the morning.
Excuse the delay in getting back.
You certainly have a unique prospective on World history.
I reminded you that
the best Marxist in the world were JEWS and ALL early Israeli governments were socialists.
you say..
if Israel (or the US) had wanted the ship sunk, it would have been sunk.
An unbelievable bombastic statement that no neutral would make. They had 30 MINUTES not 3 to do it and failed. They used TORPEDO boats! I'm reluctant to write that my impression is that some people wound prefer if all 200 had died so they would not have to answer forever for another Zionist atrocity.
One logic for the attack was to cover another atrocity taking place that the Liberty could detect with its technology. This was the nearby massacre of Egyptian POWs!
Your smartass comment about the stupidly of these brave men demonstrates either a deep dislike of Americans or a total bias towards Zionists.
You stated
Morey...Ironically, several of the survivors thought they were being attacked by MIGs (these sailors on an intelligence ship couldn't tell the difference between MIGs and Mirages, but they're surprised that an Israeli pilot couldn't identify a blowing flag from a fast moving plane) but finally spotted the tell-tale blue and white Star of David.
Early on, I listed 8 points that concerned me. Reminiscent if events today in Israel/Palestine, your response is the blame the victims!
They were technicians not fighting men. Their inability to tell the difference between MIGs and Mirages in no way reflects their intelligence. Staying alive was utmost on their minds. IMO, your attempt at humour at their expense of their intelligence job falls very short of an acceptable jib.
Early on I wrote...
4. Three USA flags were on display. It is pretty unique and a million miles from the Egyptian flag. Whatever excuse the pilots might have had, there is no way the INF could all not see US flags.
... clearly letting the pilots off the hook for not identifying the Liberty yet repeatedly you refer to the pilots and totally ignore my point as to how the torpedo boats failed to identify the Liberty. Your attempt to deflect only confirms to me that my point about the boats is correct. It was deliberate killing of Americans!
And as you raised it, repeatedly, I have a view on your pilot vs Liberty contention. Whereas it was difficult for the Liberty crew to see the very small insignia on a plane the reverse is NOT TRUE. No matter what speed, there is no way they could misidentify THREE LARGE American flags!
Morey...If there was a cover up, it was because the Americans themselves had screwed up so badly.
Lies have a way of snowballing. I've seen the same 'blame the victim' tactic used on Rachel Corrie - now branded by some as deserving of her own death, is in use here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
Rachel Corrie -
I'll return to my personal motives as to my interest in Israel later, if you don't mind. I'll just assure you that your scatter gun attempt of attacking my motives for interest in Zionist faults will not deflect me. All fell shy of the mark by the way. Justice in the World may be a concept beyond comprehension for some. With your ...
Morey ...prevented good Christians from spreading love, and kept the poor from rising up, and who better to blame than the one civilization that has actually, outlived all the great powers that have come and gone through history.
...it is pretty clear that you have no interest in spreading Christian love.
Pre-Aswan Dam, America was best buddies with Egypt and NOT Israel. Suffice to say, if American funds had built Aswan as promised, then the Middle East would be an entirely different place. Your...
Morey ...Both the US and Israel were preparing for the possible use of nuclear weapons until Israeli forces were able to hold back the Syrians in the Golan
...is certainly new on me. Israel probably, US very unlikely!
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